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From: dbongard@netcom.com (Dan Bongard)
Subject: Re: Quake, Violence, Guns, Constitution, et al
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Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:05 GMT
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Jason Nyte (nyte@ods.ods.net) wrote:
: Dan Bongard <dbongard@netcom.com> wrote in article
:> Jason Nyte (nyte@ods.ods.net) wrote:
:>: James R. Shiflett wrote:

:>: At least %75 of the local "gun advocates" here in Wisconsin either have
:>: a shwastica tattoo and/or a shaved head.

:> That's very interesting. If your figures are correct, we can conclude
:> that, since 70% of Wisconsin residents own guns (and are therefore 
:> "gun advocates"), the population of Wisconsin is primarily composed
:> of people with shaved heads and/or swastika tattoos. 

: No, owning a gun does not make one a "gun advocate".

Obviously it does -- otherwise you wouldn't own one. Nobody is going
to go out and plunk down $700 for a pistol they feel they have no moral
or legal right to own.

: I know alot of individuals that would have no problem getting rid of
: theirs if they ever stopped liking venison or the bears, wolves and
: coyotes suddenly left.

Irrelevant. They believe -- unlike gun-control activists -- that they
have a right to own, and use, their guns. They choose to use them to hunt
bears, wolves, and coyotes, as is their right. Just because they are
passive in their advocacy does not make that advocacy any less present.
Tell me -- are the only "free speech advocates" in this country flag
burners and child pornographers? Do you only call somebody an "advocate"
if they are offending you?

:>:> I will be more willing to listen to the anti-gun crowd when they get
:>:> as active against governmental tyranny as they are against personal
:>:> gun ownership. 

:>: Would this be the bombing in Oklahoma or the junk bonds? 

:> Could you please explain what either of those two things has to do 
:> with (a) the right to gun ownership as guaranteed by the Constitution
:> or (b) advocacy of those rights? The only connection you could possibly
:> draw is through the theory that the bombing was inspired by the
:> murder of the Branch Davidians by federal agents during an attempt
:> to seize firearms...

: Sorry, the head of the BD was claiming to be "Christ Returned" and killed
: his own while telling them they'ld be with him.

And you know this because you were there, I assume? No -- all of the
witnessess are dead, and the FBI and BATF get to spread their story.
There is no evidence supporting them, and considerable evidence indicating
that the BATF inadvertantly (perhaps deliberately, though I doubt it)
started the fire. Furthermore the deaths took place during the government's
violent (and utterly illegal) assault on the compound, which makes the
government culpable for them.

By the way, you forgot to say what the Oklahoma bombing (or junk bonds)
have to do with the right to gun ownership. Are you ready to admit
that was just a half-assed ad hominem attack on gun advocates?

:> Furthermore, since when do the actions of a few loonies and criminals
:> invalidate basic rights?

: They don't, and I never said they did.

You are using the actions of those same loonies to say that the rest
of us shouldn't have the right to protect ourselves against government
tyranny -- the main purpose of the second amendment.

: But in my expereince, anyone going around telling people about 
: "governmental tyranny" need a reality check or a trip to the middle
: east or any other "third world" country.

I see. So, in your bright and shiny little world-view, any government
behavior short of that exhibited by Iran and El Salvador cannot
possibly be tyrannical? It is ok for the US government to seize
property without trial, force warantless searches based on racial
profiles, and enforce unconstitutional executive-branch directives,
and imprison a greater percentage of the population than any other
nation -- just so long as they don't actually form death squads and 
herd people into death camps? 

:>: Would this be the random beatings of anyone with darker skin or a
:>: slightly different face? 

:> Are you insane?

: No, I'm in Wisconsin. Around here it's "cool" to be a racist and I've
: actually been ASKED if I wanted to go "beat a nigger".

Why do I give a fuck if you're from Wisconsin? We're talking about gun
ownership here. Wisconsin racism has no bearing on that. Every single
solitary man, woman, and child in Wisconsin could be swastika-waving
Nazi racist sex fiends and it wouldn't detract in the slightest from
MY right to own whatever guns I please. Or the right of the Nazi sex
fiends, for that matter.

-- Dan
